Print Page - Slave's topic 9-24-09

Gorean Roleplay => Tuchuk Wagon Camp => MTC Discussion and Learning Center => Topic started by: Raziel on September 24, 2009, 02:40:24 PM

Title: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: Raziel on September 24, 2009, 02:40:24 PM

Are slaves really their own worst critique and actually strive to be better or are they the prissy love struck warm fuzzy Gor is a romance novel submissives we see?

What is your take on this quote?

Raz

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: familure{TD} on September 24, 2009, 06:00:06 PM

another interesting choice of topics for this week Master...

speaking only for myself here...personally, i think that slaves are a mix of both those things. that while logically we know that in order to be found worthy of a Masters attention (and if we're lucky enough...His affections) , we must constantly strive towards perfection. unfortunately it seems that most slaves it is the emotional side that rears it's head and in that case, we need to be found worthy first in order to find the motivation to put forth the actual effort into striving for perfection.

it just varies on the percentages with in each girl. -chuckles--

it seems to be a human flaw- to be our own harshest critics. to focus on and magnify each imperfection that we see with in ourselves. which i've always thought was the motivation behind having slaves kneel naked before the mirror. to force the slave to see herself as she is seen and all that entails. using our own inner critic to honestly examine our flaws, not to dwell upon them, but instead to work on them. improving ourselves, pushing, driving ourselves ever forward on the path that slavery leads us down.

however, it is my firm belief that no slave can reach their pinnacle alone. she does eventually need that firm unrelenting hand of guidance, that's part of the beauty that is the dynamic of the Master/slave relationship. it's something that requires a balance. the slave that monitors herself in all aspects and puts forth the effort to improve herself along side the Owner that constantly demands perfection from her.

*edited to add*

as far as the warm and fuzzy, as the Gor turns kind of slave? some girls do come in with rose colored glasses. having read a few books and seen how all the slaves that get focused on wind up finding their love Master...they expect Gor to be that way. unfortunatly...a slave finding her love Master was about as common as someone hitting the mega millions lottery. sure it happens...but look at the odds.

ok, enough rambling....

thank You Master, for such a thought provoking topic

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: Medi on September 24, 2009, 10:41:42 PM

this girl is not sure how to take this topic, especially the comment.

again, the comment seems to show that we kajira are badly disappointing to the Free here in Tuchuk, and this girl is sorry, and is very discouraged, she had thought that she was doing better.

any girl that has a true slave belly is always her own worst critic. speaking for herself, when this girl has sometimes left the room after being corrected, it has always been because she is overreacting and is furious with herself. she feels that it would be best to leave...that the Free despise her, and that she has been so displeasing that it might even be best for everyone if she left the Tuchuk. it is always a Free, or an experienced sister, who has explained to this girl, after she has cooled down and come back the next day, (or in pm or a message), the need to hang in and keep trying...that everyone has had their bad times, and that Whoever had corrected her really didn't hate her and didn't want her to leave MTC, permanently.

in terms of training, this girl will speak freely, since the Master had said, in posting the last topic, that we could speak freely.

training is much more than just beating, or scolding a slave when she makes a mistake, she needs to be guided on how to become a pleasing creature. in the novels, barbarians received very thorough training on how to behave. even into grooming, how to kiss, how to dance, etc., before they were allowed to mix with Goreans. (being guided on how to behave and how to be pleasing is especially true of typists like me, who show up with no Gorean experience, other than having read a few novels years ago, and who is also new to r/p).

the training aspect has certainly improved here, in the last few hands. this girl feels that she is finally being guided on how to study, and how to properly train 'by herself' by the new training team. the assignments they have given me have focused my attention, and i don't feel like i am just floundering around. Master, a girl cannot train herself, that 'quote' is correct, but the situation was much different in the novel than here at MTC. the girl in the novel was not left alone to flounder and train herself, she was drilled day in and day out by skilled teachers, who knew how to train a girl, and was beaten without mercy for the slightest mistake. her slave belly allowed her to learn from the strict teaching, she wanted to please her teachers, and to become a credit to her collar. her teachers realized that she was trying, and would occasionally give her a treat or a compliment. i have felt so alone for so long, but believed that that is what was expected here at MTC, to have to 'pay dues', before being allowed to become a member of the family. during the first few months i was afraid every time i entered the room. i felt that everyone was watching for me to make a mistake so that they could chastise me. (it was very confusing for this girl, especially since so many were really trying to help her, but it was not organized). the sense of fear increased and increased, and caused me to make more and more mistakes, and, i really was ready to leave at one point. thankfully, i didn't, and i feel that i am getting better at r/p and at being a kajira, and look forward to many years of learning, and enjoyment here with the Tuchuk, and to give back to the Free all that her slave belly can offer.

in regards to 'romance novels', what can i say, but 'sheesh'! all of the kajira in the novels are lovestruck, and they all yearn for a 'love Master'. they work hard to become pleasing, not because they look forward to the destiny of being a dull slave pulling a plow, or being sold to the red savages, or being beaten, or being a drab kettle, (or whatever dull, dry, obedient object that a Man like You wants her to become, Master), but because she wants a better life, and to be loved...a woman can't be a true woman without being loved, and kajira are women, even if they are classified as animals. sorry, Master, You can be alone, and a Warrior, and be complete, but a woman can't, she needs to feel that she is loved in order to be complete. our 'Aphrodite' can be stern and unfeeling, but our 'Psyche' needs her 'Eros' to be able to express the goddess that is contained within.

(actually i just got an insight...FW express their 'Aphrodite', we kajira live our 'Psyche'.)

i really cried, (and still do), at the ending of 'Captive'...when Rask stoops His tarn down onto the battlements, and Bosk holds back the archers, so that Rask can carry elinor brinton away...and then Bosk is brought the pouch of 100 gold coins that Rask threw down...the same Rask who said that He had never bought a woman in His life...it just doesn't get more romantic than that! it even beats 'Gone with the Wind' when Rhett carries Scarlett up the staircase. (maybe one just have to be a woman to understand). we kajira are controlled by our emotions...that is why we are seen as precious jewels of humankind...cities are judged by the beauty and quality of their kajira...we are regarded as prime 'booty' during a raid, which is why our standing order is to lock ourselves in cages during a raid...this girl has been told by a Mistress that a war was fought over kajira. how can we possibly be so pleasing if we have to restrain our prime emotion...LOVE!!!!!!...the love we hold for all of the Free...the love that we, as kajira, are allowed by our position to express freely to all in the clan. we don't have to worry about a family, we are sterile. we don't have to help a FC, we are property. we don't have to worry about survival, the Free will protect us, and provide us with what we need.

so, what is left for us kajira to do, Master? except to love all of You...and...we do.

but, if being a proper Tuchuk kajira means something else, please instruct this girl, Master...

(oh, wait...i missed the whole point...this girl should somehow be able to figure that out herself...)

amanda

...gets back to gathering dung, eyes dull, lips slack and drooling, like the little animal that she is...trips and does a faceplant...sits up...what was i doing?

is this what a kajira should be, Master?

just wondering...

(btw...this is about the 20th version of this response...and...You did say we could speak freely)

and...why did a Rarius like Bosk finally realize that elinor brinton was worth 100 gold coins?

just wondering...

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: familure{TD} on September 24, 2009, 11:53:46 PM

amanda, i am obviously not Master Raziel and am in no way trying to speak for Him or any Other of our Home....but your reply caught my attention and i felt your words warranted a reply.

i don't think that the topic was meant as a slam on the slaves...not in general, nor to any specific slave. i know that speaking for my reply, i spoke on the fact that many slaves have come through Gor hoping to find the perfect love Master...though even in the books they mention how they were a very rare thing. in rp...even more so. the ones hoping like that, with their hearts on their sleeves...seem to wind up hurt and disillusioned when they realize that for every one Elinor Brinton, how many hundreds of slaves toiled away in the fields and kitchens?? how many were simply killed outright due to being found displeasing, or even because it was a random whim of that Free to do such? not because they (the slave) wished that kind of outcome, but because that was the lot of a slave. it is as simple as that. every slave, from the highest girl to the lowest kettle only has one actual duty....to bring honor to their collars with every action that they do.

being a slave, is many things indeed. not all of which are sunshine and roses, but it is our lot.

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: Medi on September 25, 2009, 12:21:56 AM

thanks lure, hugs, you are the best.

this girl took the challenge personally, i mean, she is a Tuchuk kajira, and it was aimed at her, as well as all of us kajira.

she gave it her best response, from her heart and was totally honest. what more can she do?

be well, sis. <Hugs>

amanda

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: Raziel on September 25, 2009, 08:31:02 AM

amanda,

Pay attention here for I will say this but once to you...take it as you will. As far as speaking freely then yes, speak freely but you are not simply speaking to the topic, you are directing your answer to me, so in such, I have directed a reply to you, pointedly.

If all of the kajira in the novels are lovestruck then I must have read the wrong series, or you just read...a couple, simply focusing on those novels that were simply NOT Nomads. But lets move on.

Quote

(or whatever dull, dry, obedient object that a Man like You wants her to become, Master)

I can say if one thinks this is what a Man like me wants a slave to become, then clearly you dont pay attention to the instruction you have recieved by the training team, by myself, nor do you pay attention to the topics posted everywhere that have my signature upon it. There are few slaves that catch my eye and the reason they have? Because they have become jewels of Tuchuk, expressive in their own right, obedient because it is within their hearts to be and possessing the fire in the bellies to "love" being a slave. Not something dull or dry or obedient but alive and yet a paradox of what she is within. Fire in the belly isnt just a statement to descrive what a slave yearns to be, but fire in the overall sense. When you look at fire, think about fire, truly come to understand what is meant by fire in the belly, then perhaps you will come to realize what it TRULY means to be a slave. If there is a reason I dont pay attention to some "love struck" slaves, it is because they have become "dull, dry, obedient" objects that have nothing that is unique about them.

At one point, you did have something unique, but lets provide you a refresher course on why that has changed. And it has everything to do with your outlook and perception on what is Gor. Captive of Gor. That is one out of how many of the books? One slave out of how many? No this is not a trivia question, it is a rhetorical question because I dont need your answer.

Quote

kajira are controlled by our emotions...that is why we are seen as precious jewels of humankind..." Yes, kajira are and yes this is correct as to why they are seen as precious...but it is not "we have to restrain our prime emotion...LOVE!!!!!!...

No, only that is YOUR only prime emotion because you are influenced by a particular couple of books that show something so outrageous as 100 gold for a slave. Clearly, you need to read the others. I have them all should you desire to further your knowledge base.

Quote

but, if being a proper Tuchuk kajira means something else, please instruct this girl, Master...

(oh, wait...i missed the whole point...this girl should somehow be able to figure that out herself...)

You have just been instructed, pay attention. The whole point is the fact that a slave loves who she is, what she is and has learned that frees look upon a slave because of these things, their love of what they are in their servitude. Are all the slaves in the books so love struck? Here, let me side comment like you...

(Oh wait, you havent read all the books, so this you also cannot answer)

Quote

...gets back to gathering dung, eyes dull, lips slack and drooling, like the little animal that she is...trips and does a faceplant...sits up...what was i doing?

is this what a kajira should be, Master?

For one like you, careful where you tread, lest you actually track that dung into the main of camp and that is all you become.

Quote

and...why did a Rarius like Bosk finally realize that elinor brinton was worth 100 gold coins?

just wondering...

If you look to the men's topic, you might also learn that some men of Gor, werent exactly men of Gor but retained emotions attributed to earth. It is all there, in the books. The philosophy of Gor is written in black and white for all to read. Have you?

Raziel

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: rep on September 25, 2009, 10:24:07 AM

hmm, another topic that looks easy enough at first glance and gets me talking in circles once again.

i agree with the quote 100%.

there is always a way for a slave to do something better, be it smarter, funnier, prettier or simply more pleasing. even when she is sent to kennel completely exhausted and truly thinking she gave her all, there is always that little voice inside yourself that whispers and sometimes screams afterward 'why didn't you do this' or 'you shouldn't have done that'. a Free's approval means everything in the world but there lies something deep inside that will push you to try even harder next time. even if you managed to please the first attempt, it's not enough to rest on your laurels, you strive to do more and demand yourself to succeed. you may find freedom and guidance thru your Owners collar and your Trainer's lessons and sisters' unique outlook, but in the end you, alone, are the one whom is going to obey or please. it doesn't matter how many instructions or positive feedback or even punishments are given to reinforce a concept or belief, it is you whom has to live with yourself (if Free allows) and move on or continue to slide. it is you whom picks yourself up and takes another step and begs for the help and seeks the answers. it is you whom accepts or denies yourself as slave. another can help you find that part of you thru talk or touch but it is you whom has to ask yourself to do it, not a Free thru a command or a Trainer thru a test or a sister thru a hug, it's you whom has to do the work, follow the want and obey the need to let yourself grow.

the reality of r/p is that i have a choice and have to own up to the decisions i make (please understand that i feel compelled to r/p over want sometimes and know a Free always has final say over anything). it may be corrected or bring upon punishment but it is my inner drive to please or obey or bring a smile or laughter. i chose whether to walk into that room ic or ooc, hang on IM or just read the message board. i chose how well i wish to honor the collar, how much i expose myself. it is i whom embraces my slavery or not, it is i whom loves and respects and disappoints and falters. a Free can guide, lead, punish or reward as they wish and will, but it is still me and only me whom can improve myself and i can only do that if i want to. a Free can correct and suggest and a sister can advise and share but, you alone have to want, no to need, to be better, to try harder, to ask for help and simply find a way to do improve upon yourself. you have to listen to your Owner's approval or disgust, your Trainer's correction or silence and your sisters joy or pain but when all that eventually fades away, and it does, you are left alone to listen to what lies inside you. a Master can stir your fire or Mistress challenge your thoughts and a sister offer healthy competition but it is still the innate need of the kajira whom will not rely solely on their help. i need them, want them, use them and draw strength from them, but i have to rise up to meet their expectations and it is i whom craves and creates and conquers or is left with the ache inside if i don't.

your whole Tuchuk family can and will thankfully bring you wonderful tools of serving opportunities, required chores, rules to follow and assignments to write, r/p to join, fun to be had, friendships to harvest and relationships to treasure and everything that falls in between. all of these interactions can all help you in your journey of joy and sometimes despair, that will shape what you are but it is still your own inborn drive, need, and self that will ultimately dictate what kind of kajira you will become. when the night is over or day just starting, it is me whom hasn't slept or wakes with a smile, because i have disappointed or pleased another and it is me whom will continue to think of my answer and if i have been understood or left something out and worry what is thought of me, because deep down inside, i do want to improve myself which also means, some how, some way, and some day, i will. not only because of my Owner and my Trainers and my sisters and the whole family, all wish and want this for me, but because i should hope and need to do it no matter what.

kiah{MTC}

------

i admit the prissy love struck comment bit at me but i know its because i am guilty of sometimes acting that way. i know i once thought myself better than some sisters and i battle with feelings for One and struggle to dig myself out of the hole i've created for myself but i also know in the end i will find a better balance of pride and passion and obedience and love. my emotions will be better harvested and my actions will speak louder than any words on this board and my willingness to open up to my family beyond the r/p will expose a better support system than just might revoke some of my 'i should be able to do it myself' attitude expressed above.

still, by me even remarking on Master's quote and reading my sisters' response, i am learning thru another's way of thinking as well as more about myself, because He asked? because they shared? yes to both. still i respond because i don't want to disappoint but also want to learn. He helped by asking and anyone's feedback teaches yet by continuing to think on this long after a new topic is introduced, am i not also teaching and trying to myself? ~ugh~ perhaps the quote isn't quite 100% true after all, for i will go back and reread my response and any others later on tonight while at the same time be thinking of it through out the day. Master might have planted the questions but i will think of my own response?...~blushes~..okay, kiah has confused herself again and end her post but will still be thinking of it, because she cannot help it...

~edits to add~

i agree that i am my worst critic. a correctable blemish seen by a Free/trainer can easily be reflected back to me as an unforgivable flaw. i will point out my own error rather then wait and see if it's addressed, because even if it's 'allowed' or 'overlooked' deep inside, i know i have done something wrong or not good enough. the approval and/or pleasure of a Free is only temporary, the need to try and then attain it, again and again, is endless. get the tiniest bit of positive feedback and it fills your soul with joy, get anything close to negative, and it can destroy that very same thing. i can't heal without your forgiveness but i also can't just forgive myself because you have told me to move on.

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: ndndancer on September 29, 2009, 12:51:42 PM

*Frustrated grunt* You certainly know how to get to the heart of the matter Master. i've been visiting for a while and when You put this up on the board, i resisted reading it or responding to it. i had to look at that and figure out why. i found some unsavory truths about myself, but i also found that i've learned, a lot, since first coming to Gor. i learned a lot from the hard lessons, from the Gorean messes i've either been part of or witnessed. i don't know how many times i've had to say to myself, "okay, what are you supposed to learn here." i know if i don't learn the lesson the first time around, i'll find myself in the same situation with the lesson shoved in my face, knocking me on my can can once again.

All righty then..... i'll probably ramble a bit because i'm exhausted right now, but i have to go through this or it's going to nag at me.

i can honestly say that with two notable exceptions, i've never felt so much a Gorean slave as i do in MTC. At one time i railed against the ginormous amount of knowledge and training i had to go through and now, i welcome it. i think i finally get it. Those two notable exceptions were the only truly Gorean Men i was blessed to be owned by. They got it. it was a glorious experience being owned by such Men. i had direction, training, tasks, and challenges to go deeper into slavery with both of them. i thought that was how it "should" be. i thought that was the "norm". Boy was i wrong. in between, there was the online version of Gorean slavery, where roleplay and entertainment is what's valued, rather then the growth of slaves into Gorean slaves.

It was an odd journey and i grew very little during those times. i actually lapsed and took several steps back. i was no longer under intense scrutiny, no longer was perfection expected, nor even required. there was no direction, many times there were disappearing Masters, one gender bender (He/She owned me and i thought it strange He/She never used me! lol.... now, i'm grateful!) and Masters who shelved with no forwarning or disappeared with no forewarning. All through this, i kept expecting, yeah.... i know...... instead of tending my own garden, i expected someone to give me roses.... lol..... i learned a hard lesson, a lesson contained in that quote. There is a spirit, a mind, a heart that -is- slave. No one can do that for me. i have to do it myself. Especially in this online world, the work is internal. i can "choose" to -be- a Gorean slave and work towards that goal. Examining myself thoroughly, working hard on self improvement, or, i can wait for roses.. laughs.

i think many online slaves sorta expect the fuzzy wuzziness, and many online Goreans give them that. It's really strange out there! Not much of it a Gorean strangeness either! i've been in a WOW home, and many many many homes that have no expectations or rules for slaves other then "have fun". i've been in one home where a week after i was collared, the entire home up and changed all their names, changed the room from one part of Gor to another and then a month later, they all shelved again! It was like a roving band of Gorean bit players. i never felt at home in those city walls anyways.... grins.

that's why i came back to Tuchuk. i know a lot is expected of slaves. i know that i don't know everything. i feel like i'm back to square one, raw and hungry. there is no stagnation here, you grow, or you die. But, each slave has one choice and only one. To be here. i chose to be here for the very reasons i failed the first time around. MTC expects only the best from the kajirae here. i know i'll be challenged, tested, fail and learn from those failures along the way. What's different is me. i'm really not a roleplayer entirely here for entertainment. i'm here to learn, about me as i take baby steps towards becoming a Gorean slave again. i don't want the bit in my mouth any longer. i want the hard times and the good times that come with that. Gorean slavery is hard damnit, why did they let me get away with so much? i know that won't happen here.

Thank You Master....

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: klarissa{NS} on October 27, 2009, 11:56:55 AM

"Do you know, ultimately," I asked, "who will prove to be your one best trainer?" "No, Master," she said. "You, yourself," I said, "the girl, herself, eager to please, imaginative and intelligent, monitoring her own performances and feelings, striving lovingly to improve and refine them. You yourself will be largely responsible for making yourself the superb slave you will become."
Page 210 - Savages of Gor

i have often read this quote and sometimes have been directed to it by a Master or two. i find this statement to be completely true. i will try and elaborate further.

i was once a very bad girl...dare i say princess or perhaps the Master at the time was too busy with His own needs and not being the Master He should have been...but i dualed out of bordom. Not once but twice...the first time, tho i'd been slain, i was no worse for wear at the end of the day...did i teach myself anything? nah...i didnt lose anything in the transaction...

The second time was a bit different. i loved Gor and craved to learn...i still do. And when a girl is left to spiral down because of the lack of training, often times she'll go out of her way to get that training. i did just that, but this time i saw the damage it created, not only to others but myself most of all. i was not killed off as before but left to find the truth of slavery through years of punishment. 2 1/2 to be exact. The punishment was swift and very harsh...and i often beat myself down and had to pick myself up by the boot straps and continue on. i was devistated by my actions and being forced to live with the consequences was the hardest thing i'd ever done....But this time i learned.

im not the same girl i used to be. i still beat myself up when i screw something up and ive also learned to praise and be proud when something is done right. i would have to say that now i am my own worst enemy . i think now i've proven that i am my own best teacher.

Thank You Master for the great topic...gave me something to reflect back on.

PS.. Mistress asked me to place also on this page that im using Her comp...would hate to be accused of that nasty thing stated above as im currently at Her home getting my ass beat!

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: aisling{MTC} on October 29, 2009, 09:12:39 PM

~ironic chuckle~ How utterly interesting that aisling should stumble upon this topic tonight of all nights!
~settles in to let her fingers do the walking~

Being involved rt in D/s relationship this topic has arose many, many manytimes. As a submissive female, i can read rules, i can be taught rules and i can learn mannerisms that are pleasing but the underlying desire to be found pleasing, the need to serve and the void filled by submission are reasons we all strive for some form of perfection. When i find i have not attained some sort of perfection, the chasm of failure is deep! The reality is no one is perfect, yet we all strive for it. A Master whom I submitted to long ago said to me amidst a punishment that He expected me to fail but it was how I handled the after that was most important to Him. If I could learn from my mistake and get past it, then that was something He found worth in.

i cannot speak for other slaves, but for myself when i have been found lacking from any be it trainer or Master or Mistress, immediately my heart races and my self-depreciating sets in and i can't think straight until i set things right. Even after the physical punishments are over, the pain inside of failure is deep and long standing. I've always held true that no one can punish me worse than i can punish myself!

To mention again the failure to pass even the base tests I was given still has me every night, reading, studying, making maps and notes like I was in school. Not because anyone will ever see those things, not because that's what I was told to do, but because the pain of letting down someone I cared about hurt so much I still try to find ways to never be so careless again.

again, this one thanks You Master for bringing these topics to light.

xoxox
aisling
{MTC}

Title: Re: Slave's topic 9-24-09
Post by: Shadow duck on November 02, 2009, 02:06:33 AM

** addin my two coppers worth**..

it is true Master a good slave is her own best trainer.. as she alone can in her own mind cause much fear to come to the surface if she beleves she has done something wrong.. to which she will endevor to correct it even to the possiblily of becoming an annoance to a Master or Mistress.. to which that slave will then truly learn her or his place.. some never do and end up as kibble or targets.. but each learns in a different manner our own minds will allow us to follow and copy what we beleve is the correct movements but our thoughts will then turn to our own developments which then allow us to become our own type of slave** yes i know this isn't makin sense but in my mind it does**..

thank you for allowin my to ramble...
chanz

WEBMAZE Community

Gorean Roleplay => Tuchuk Wagon Camp => MTC Discussion and Learning Center => Topic started by: Raziel on September 24, 2009, 02:40:24 PM