Slave's Topic 10-23-09

[Raziel]

New slaves are often treated with great harshness.  It helps them learn quickly that they are slaves. Later, when the girl is well trained and her services become perfections she may be treated more leniently, even lovingly, like a dog. To be sure, if she should become in the least bit lax, the original strictures, or worse, will be instantly reimposed, or instituted.
Dancer of Gor, page 90

Slaves, elaborate on this topic and see if this is true in Tuchuk with examples.

Raz

[ndndancer]

Greetings Master,

i had to think about this for a couple of days before responding.  i don't think this quote applies to Tuchuk, very little if at all in my mind.  i think there is great effort expended by the trainers to help slaves in their journies and haven't noted any great harshness.  i've actually seen great effort taken to assist slaves in finding their way here.  True, much of the work of individual slaves is done individually and there isn't much hands-on type training unless a slave is having trouble or requests help.  i'm not privvy to those discussions so can't speak to them. 

i was a slave in a Slaver's House and new slaves were treated very harshly.  They were whipped (initiatory whipping), branded perfunctorily, collared, given a new name, given slavewine and roughly inspected to see if they were glana or metaglana and then sent off to the training rooms to begin their training.  They spent days in front of a mirror in the mirror rooms and were whipped for less then perfect performance in doing the various positions. 

Needless to say, there were few slaves in the Slaver's House.... *chuckles*. 

In this online world, it's hard for most women to actually get into the mindset of Gorean slavery.  we get our feelers hurt and disappear, shelve, do fantastical unrealistic "escapes" or just disappear.  Then the story changes to be "it's my time online, and you don't pay my internet bill and i'm here to relax and have fun!".  i always wonder why they think slavery is "fun".  It's not, not if it's done realistically.  It's hard work!

In Tuchuk, i believe, there is a healthy balance in realizing that most of us have difficulty getting our minds wrapped around that "slave state".  we're not born into slavery, nor trained that it's normal r/t, so it takes a while to get to that in a roleplay environment.  There is a healthy balance between the harshness seen in the books and easing a slave into knowing that online.  The Slaver's House didn't work that well, not because it wasn't realistic, because it was too real. It billed itself as "advanced roleplay" and we had a lot of "roleplayers" initially, until it got boring to day after day train in front of a mirror, most of the time alone.  *grins*

In MTC, there is a realization that turning a r/t woman with earthbound feelings and morays, into a Tuchuk slave, takes time and effort and won't happen overnight.  i believe that's the reason for the extended training program, it's an effective way of step by step, helping a slave get to that "slave state" in her head as she submits more with each step she takes.  But, when a slave knows something, or should know something and messes up, the hammer is hard and swift..... grins. 

i've also been in homes with no training program at all.  It's a free for all and every slave is a pleasure slave immediately upon arrival.  What a mess those homes turned into!  slaves going off and having little "adventures" that put the Free in danger or did damage to the Free's property.  No training and no discipline only feeds the earth bound mentality of women online, in my opinion.  It does little to help slaves understand their role and place in Gorean society.  It creates tons of drama and some seem to feed off of that drama, drawing others in....  Such homes become the "flavor of the month" homes that are common online.  No one has to put any effort into being there, so there is not much loyalty when the home begins to fall apart.

One of the keys to MTC's longevity, is the actual training that goes into every aspect of -being- Tuchuk that helps new people turn into Tuchuks.  It's the attention to every detail of Tuchuk life and not the fast food environment, or the "me me me" sort of mentality found elsewhere.  Tuchuk life is hard and not for the faint of heart and MTC is one home where people can actually learn what that means and feels like.  MTC is not a Gorean chatroom, it's a Gorean Home, a Tuchuk Home.

Thank You Master

[rep]

This quote and subsequent instructions make me reluctant to respond, as it will require me to revisit the not so distant and painful past but i will as i want to be found pleasing and not have one of those hard lessons repeat themself. I will answer in generalities before specifying with my own experiences.

With my neglect to keep up my reading of the Books, I will skip straight to slaves completely new to (online) Gor. I believes that those with no experience are treated with great leniency by Tuchuk as a whole, with people going out of their way to become friends before teaching them how a kajira might be found. What good does it do the slave or even camp if they are too shell-shocked to continue, afraid of being killed for their very first mistake? How sad the number of good slaves leaving for years or forever because of this very thing. Too many are abused by non-goreans because of their kind heart or natual submissive state. It takes great strength to begin exploring, especially on your own in an unknown room, with many finding out the hard way of what they don’t want instead of what they might really need.

New slaves to Tuchuk often arrive with the scars of misuse and now lack of trust, either from inexperienced or self-promoting Owners, treating them either as a girlfriend or worthless piece of crap. I believe there is an initial honeymoon phase lasting from days, weeks or even months, before the thrilling newness of expectations either overwhelm or are surprisingly met. Once a slave proves they are worth the effort by simply showing up and giving a try, the Trainers and every member help acquaint them with the unique Tuchuk training program and how lenient or harsh their life becomes is mostly up to them.

Every slave is different, floundering or flourishing in a different set of circumstances, ranging from simply correction to positive reinforcement, fear or simply wishing to be found pleasing. I think that most in Camp are forgiving as long as you try to learn from your mistakes but sometimes friendships might distract from that Gorean influence of a slave or even a Free, leading them both to forget a slave’s true place.

i think the pagars walk a fine line between already proving themselves and constantly being found worthy of the title, carrying the pressure of setting that near perfect example and having to live with their more costly mistakes. to rest on their laurels only denies the camp of their well known beauty and hurts themselves, though even if they fully embrace they are slave,  i can't imagine that need for the occasional reminder to ever completely fade away.

I can speak of my own experiences, most under the public eye though more remain in the privacy of the pm, leaving the complete story to not be known. I have to start with the changeable definitions of both leniency and harsh, as they make only sense to me. I feel the two extremes oddly melt together and even become interchangeable at times, making two very different words become one some of the time. In the ironic twist that I will try to clearly explain, leniency can equal harshness but not be reciprocated back.

In the world that I live (r/p) in , leniency is rarely a treat, simply sending me to further mess up instead of moving forward once again. I know I should be grateful for the lighter hand with less pain attached but I continue to suffer and then ultimately experience that harshness not forthcoming at the beginning.

I remember being corrected by a Mistress, losing only a hidden strand of my hair instead of the whole head but I remained lost instead of finding my own way. In the end, when I needed the more strict reaction to regain my place, the initial leniency only ended up with more pain instead of getting it over and down with so I could begin again.

There was the time I was whipped by a Mistress whom chose to stop soon after it began,  showing leniency though perhaps not. will never know the actual reason, and this was actually harsher than perhaps the original plan. I was left without the release of emotions, to purge away the errors, thru screaming, tears or blood, instead having them linger with the pain but not enough to dull the feelings of failure that remained. The harsher punishment would have been more forgiving than the kinder one that was bestowed, as the higher suffering would have ended it sooner than the punishment that was doled out.

Over my time in Tuchuk I have lived almost every aspect of the quote written above, from the basic allowance to return after my stormy departure to still being alive this very day. I know I have grown grateful for the most basic of gifts and feel a twinge each time I don’t get even my name in a greeting, be it kiah or a pet. It the removal of anything precious that seems to truly mark what is ‘harsh’ and the permittance of any of them to remain to dictate what ‘leniency’ can be.

The camp wide whippings is another example of the varied responses in the quote. Master Ubar had posted that they were a reminder to all the slaves of what they are, while others took it much more personally, as they had never been before whipped. A couple actually told me they were grateful and others more than hinted it was unforgivable, because I and not they were the cause, though ultimately it was a Free whom made the decision no matter how many reasons I gave to that thought.’

The loss of my levels/tags along with my restricted status continue to pay homage to those words of John Norman, as I have to retest my way back up instead of getting my tags simply handed back after a length of time and the having my implied importance of being a restricted virgin perhaps re-earned. Something that sticks out too is my having to perform that belt dance when I was still trying to recover from being exposed beyond the loss of clothes when on the wheel, having to continue with the efforts even if it felt so bad inside and came out worse than probably the first serve I ever did. I wasn’t allowed to rest on that first dance when her Master said He was impressed, but had to give her all and supply the most embarrassing performance because it was ordered and not her own beg.

In reflection, I’ve lived each stage from Tuchuks warm and loving embrace, to the almost too hard lessons I still continue to recover from. It’s painfully evident I do better under the harsh reminders, either warranted or just handed out, than left to fumble thru some leniency to find self-discipline to never forget who I am. I'm the first to speak up to say i should be able to do it on my own but i'm becoming very aware of my need for others to lend a helping hand. i know I want and need to be found pleasing which is why I answer though its hard and I want to always keep learning, no matter how lenient or harsh the lessons might be.

kiah{MTC}

[aisling{MTC}]

aisling bids You greetings Master,
Please find her response as follows and know she thanks You for allowing us to think and put down our thoughts. 

   It is the belief of this one that certain women come into Gor to engage in certain roles either a slave or a Free.  This girl cannot speak for Those who come in to be a Free, but those as slaves, this one believes either they game it because the role plays offer more sexuality or because they have a burning passion within towards servitude of some varying degree.  Those that “game” it may take offense at the harshness shown to them as they are learning the ropes.  Holding fast to the believe that it is “abuse” and no one should be treated like this when they are coming online to relate to others in a fantasy type world.  Those are usually the ones who go mia never to be seen from again. The ones who are here because they have a burning desire to submit in some fashion or another. This one believes truly those are ones that recognize “harshness” is often needed to learn.  How can someone learn without making a mistake? They cannot. But they can learn from the mistake and hopefully many do. Because in that is what makes a good slave…the ability to learn and to be open to what a slave on Gor represents. A land like no other!  The pages for Tuchuk offer a vast amount of knowledge and anyone coming in who has read them or even reads them in their “mat” status should expect harshness, but alas they do not always.
   It has only been recently that aisling has seen more and more new slaves admonished on their behavior and she wonders why they continue to live in a way that is constantly causing them to be securitized down to the letter and this girl is grateful that type of guidance is happening and would bet that others would not agree. It shows that though yes this is a world of online fantasy, the fantasy of it, that you the typist wished to engage in, is damn hard!  But if you can learn from the pain, learn from the whips and the humiliations then you become something of worth, something of beauty.  Being a “seasoned” slave, or at least aisling feel like she is seasoned with three years under her belt, there are still days (after days after days) that she is reprimanded on even the littlest things and though it stings, and she is ultimately grateful for it. This slave has yet to master perfection but she does feel like her years have proven she is not going anywhere and therefore she afforded a type of trust to not completely show poorly for my home when she is in it. 
   An example of such is that for all my years aisling has been privately owned and only recently camp owned.  The rules are different and aisling originally felt that some of those rules did not apply to her because she was a slave who had been good, (mostly) and well behaved (mostly) and shown her worth to her family and therefore if she strained the boundaries it was fine. It is not fine. This girl was called to task for her training a few months ago and because she was content for far too long to rest on her laurels because aisling became almost too comfortable in her skin and because I, Connie the typist was just lazy aisling & Connie failed miserable and let down a lot of people and then did she have to go back to basics so to speak. It was not harsh in the physical sense but for one who yearns to be found pleasing, it stung unbelievably to have to be reading and re-reading the pages like a new kettle and treated with a disfavor she had not know until then.  But we do what we do because of the rewards. The honor we bring as proud, beautiful slaves for our home.  The love and sometimes adoration showed to us for our part in our homes workings, even as miniscule as they may be.  We are slaves. We are slaves in Gor. We are slaves in Tuchuk. We are, a triple threat! We have it thrice difficult and thus thrice rewarded! A Gorean Tuchuk slave is a beautiful bounty to behold!


(oh good gracious please forgive this one for going on and on!)

xoxox
aisling
{MTC}

[familure{TD}]

New slaves are often treated with great harshness.  It helps them learn quickly that they are slaves. Later, when the girl is well trained and her services become perfections she may be treated more leniently, even lovingly, like a dog. To be sure, if she should become in the least bit lax, the original strictures, or worse, will be instantly reimposed, or instituted.
Dancer of Gor, page 90

Slaves, elaborate on this topic and see if this is true in Tuchuk with examples.

Raz

a very...intriguing topic for this discussion Master, one i fear, will result in a very long, rambling reply...

to elaborate some on what is found in the books-

by the books, that is certainly true. new slaves were beaten, switched, humiliated, whipped and beaten some more. the new slave, whether it was just a woman new to slavery, a barbarian being acclimated to this harshly beautiful new world, or even...a seasoned slave in a new environment/new collar for her. all of these things were done to encourage the speed at which the girls learned along with enforcing their position of slave. this training even lent itself to reform the slaves way of thinking and self image. it might seem harsh (by earthen standards) to be publicly chastised or disciplined for simple errors..something as small as a misdirected gaze...constantly held to a mind boggling level of scrutiny. as the days go by, as the slave learns, a change beginins. the pride of a slave begins to develop as begins to be found pleasing ~ discovering praise and reward instead of the constant harshness that had been so common place. these things fuel her, as much as any threat of beating or death, towards perfection. after time, as slaves are human...mistakes are made. be it something simple to a major brain fart. and yes, the unmistakable reminder of her position would quickly be rained down upon her, until her Owner believed she had learned once again, what was expected of her.

"Does Phyllis remember the lash?" asked Flaminius.
    The girl's eyes widened with fear. "Yes," she said.
    "Then say so," said Flaminius.
    I whispered in Gorean to Ho-Tu, as though I could not understand what was transpiring. "What is he doing with them?"
    Ho-Tu shrugged. "He is teaching them they are slaves," he said.
    "I remember the lash," said Phyllis.
    "Phyllis remembers the lash," corrected Flaminius.
    "I am not a child!" she cried.
    "You are a slave," said Flaminius.
    "No," she said "No!"
    "I see," said Flaminius sadly, "it will be necessary to beat you."
    "Phyllis remembers the lash," said the girl numbly.
    "Excellent," said Flaminius. "Phyllis will be good. Phyllis will eat her gruel. Phyllis will drink her water."
    She looked at him with hatred.
    His eyes met hers and they conquered. She dropped her head, turning it to one side. "Phyllis will be good," she said. "Phyllis will eat her gruel. Phyllis will drink her water."
    "Excellent," commended Flaminius.
 Assassin of Gor  

"On the whole, it seemed to me that Kamchak treated his little barbarian slave notably well, considering that he was Tuchuk. This does not mean that she was not worked hard, nor that she did not receive a good drubbing now and then, but, on the whole, considering the normal lot of a Tuchuk slave girl, I do not think she was ill used. Once, it might be noted, she returned from searching for fuel with the dung sack, dragging behind her, only half full. "It is all I could find," she told Kamchak. He then, without ceremony, thrust her head first into the sack and tied it shut. He released her the next morning. Elizabeth Cardwell never again brought a half-filled dung sack to the wagon of Kamchak of the Tuchuks." — Nomads of Gor, page 65.

again...to elaborate, though with my history in MTC as the source instead of the books, along with the second part of the instructions~ if the quote is true in Tuchuk with examples....
 
MTC has always been rather generous and welcoming towards brand new people ~ slaves trying to find their footing and acclimate to Gor with all it's ideals. though, even with the generosities, it can prove to be a rather...shocking experience to say the least. when i was first collared to MTC, being called 'green' would have been an understatement. it was the first role play room i'd ever stepped in...and the most of Gor i knew at that time was from the one book or two i had read a few years before walking into Tuchuk. even with that, i was greener than green. at that time there were several trainers along with a rather full training team. but, the odd hours that i kept at the time, due to work, caused me to miss catching up with the slaves on the team. instead, the initial training boiled down to receiving constant reminders in PM from a former Member (Who was on Council) of mistakes made. most often theoffence was not greeting properly (back when it was done in public, following the greeting order) ,not comprehending the pull downs. constantly being told... the pages had been given to me, so why had i not yet learned the basics? having to redo the greetings...2-3 times a night, because nerves only made the mistakes worse. there was no hand holding, no spoon feeding. no friends from a distant past, nothing. to say that it was eye opening is an understatement. it was, a very, very harsh first week. one that laid the foundation of the expectations MTC held for it's camp slaves.

fast forwarding abit, a former slave (who happened to be a trainer) and i were chatting while working on a chore together. we were off somewhere, away from the main fire. this was being done after we had seen to the Free that had gathered around the fires earlier that night. a Mistress entered, and after a few moments, called us both to task for ignoring Her. though neither if us had intended for Her to feel that way, She was livid. the other slave was a pagar, i at the time, was sr. mat. there was an expectation of behavior that we had both failed to deliver. as such, a fitting punishment was bestowed. there before the fires, each one of us on hands and knees. each of us before a booted foot, we had to lick them clean. all the while hearing from Her...the disappointment she felt in our actions, until we had not only spit shined Her boots, but She felt we had learned our lessons.

more recently, the root of the camp wide whippings of each and every one of the slaves. an act ordered by Master Ubar. something that no single slave caused, instead it was the direct result of the actions of three slaves. a slave squabble moving from petty bickering, jealousy, selfishness, childish antics, to questioning the way Free choose to deal with things. all three slaves were at fault for not stepping back and being the more graceful slave. there was no leading by example. no desire to quiet and listen. instead, behaving in remarkably unflattering behavior that reflected so poorly on the steel that we are all allowed to wear...Master Ubar had enough.

perhaps the camp wide lashings were utterly Gorean in one sense, by the books. but, somehow, knowing that, the discipline extended beyond the computer screen and reached out into reality for some here. well, that fact effected me, the typist, very deeply. much more so than the whipping that was recieved (after almost 6 years in Gor, it was the first whipping ever recieved) so much so, that the 1,500 word essay that Master Ubar had assigned to the other two slaves, was also completed by me. done for the fact of being found displeasing...was actually more painful than the lashing that fell on lure, it was almost suffocating (that line of thought would certianly change if the feel of the 5 tailed whip would have been rt) until now, only a few were aware of that simple fact. like most things handled by the training team, corrective training (which continues even after reaching pagar status, yes, even for a trainer) it's usually done in the shadows.

over the many years i have been a part of MTC, i would have to say that while the methods used originally to enforce as well as reminding a slave of what is expected of her, reinforcing her place...are not just for any one certain phase of her journey, not just simply as some kind of initiation. these things are always there, always happening...while these occurrences are not always as public or as harsh as the events outlined in the books...they do indeed happen regularly...and yes, even being harsher than the original methods of correction had ever been

thank You Master, for once again giving all of us some food for thought as well as allowing us to speak freely in reply.
~lure
{MTC}