Men of Tuchuk - Death or slavery?

[kelsey]

I found this over on the Pure Gor board and thought it might make an interesting topic for discussion.  With Sjona's permission, here is the original post and the link from the PG board
http://infinite-extras.com/puregor/index.php?topic=4612.0

Posted by Sjona

I agree that on Gor, women are subject to enslavement for many reasons, or any reason at all, or no reason at all.  Its part of the 'beautiful dangers' of Gor.  If we are speaking of what is Gorean, however, and holding what we Earth people feel as secondary to -Gorean- action, men are subject to the 'beautiful dangers' and the choice of death or slavery as well.  Men at the oars of round ships, men sentenced so slavery in mines, men enslaved while in foreign territory, men shipped out of the Northern Forest with shaved heads, men defeated in battle (and for every victor, there is a defeat) are all examples.

On Gor, this question does not apply only to women.  Not only women are subject to Gor's dangers.  I think that the difference is that women, on Gor as written, are less able and likely to defend themselves.  And I believe, that to understand the question completely in full Gorean context, to understand why the choice of slavery or death is even a part of Gorean philosophy, it might be beneficial to take a look at the question from the perspective of those who 'rule'.

John Norman implies in his books, and specifically in the explanation of warrior codes, that 'honorable' men will choose death to slavery.  I suppose this applies to women in only a secondary way.  Women are different, of course, but are still subject to the ideals of men and warriors...hence why I think the enslavement of Trevian women who proclaimed themselves slaves is important.  They had shamed their men by choosing slavery to the enemy over death. (Witness of Gor, posted on Hura's originating thread.)

But for all of the instances in which we are told that a warrior will choose death over slavery, John Norman illustrates the opposing possibilities of humanity in a Gorean context.

Quote
"We anticipated," said Samos, "that your humanity would assert itself, that faced with a meaningless, ignominious death in the marshes, you would grovel and whine for your life."
In my heart I wept. "I did," I said.
"You chose," said Samos, "as warriors have it, ignominious bondage over the freedom of honorable death."
There were tears in my eyes. "I dishonored my sword, my city. I betrayed my codes."

Raiders of Gor

I think encouraging Gor's beautiful dangers is a good idea.  Though I freely admit that I may be wrong, I think many of us came to experience those beautiful dangers, and all of the Gorean possibilities presented in Dr. Lange's books.  With that said, and with the support that both men and women are subject to the death or slavery question on Gor per the books...

Do you really want those dangers in Gor?  Or ....just for women?

[RAGNAR]

It is an inherent risk that has always been there.

I am not of a Caste system... and as such the codes do not apply to me in as strict a sense as they do to one of the Caste system.

If you cut through all the crap... what it boils down to is if you are taken captive or bested in combat... does it really matter what your wishes are?

Nope.

To the victor goes the spoils.

Perhaps the honor or dishonor of it is more aptly placed upon the victor as the outcome is of their choosing.

[Raziel]

Death or slavery?

What is the real question here in response to Sjona post?  Should men feel the equality of dangers that women face?  Would it seem less than honorable that a woman would choose slavery where a man would choose death?  Dangers are there for a reason.  Men and women face danger on a daily basis in Gor.  Simply to wake up and breath on Gor is dangerous because at anytime, that breath might be taken by a man or some other in power or power hungry.

Raziel does not follow the codes of the warrior caste.  He knows them and all 100 aphorisms of the warriors caste.  He has been around and understands what is to be considered honorable or not.  He is his own man, and follows his own set of codes and has his own standards of what is honorable.  What is honorable to him is defending his family to his last breath.  If that means that Raz must accept defeat at the hands of slavery then he would, simply to breath another breath, to make a promise to exact vengeance, to breath hope of his return to defend his home, because as Raz would yet breath, no matter his condition of state of life, it is life nonetheless, life for his family and breath for them as well.  That is his honor, that is his pledge, his life for his family and no amount of humiliation can deter that type of mindset. 

Bring a question of honor to Raz, and that person will find themselves not only facing the business end of a blade, but the wisdom and sharp mindset of a True Gorean that has experienced all aspects of Gor.  A warrior, a master, a man, a friend, a brother and for many, a teacher who will teach, whether it is a lesson save your life or to live your life, by the blade or by shared knowledge. 

What is man willing to do for family?  Or does a man of Gor, a warrior of Gor have something better to live for?  Maybe a set of codes or a color of a caste?  Surely, perhaps to some, that is more honorable than to live and die for your family.  What a lonely and deprived man of Gor they must be.  People have their own viewpoints, especially the young of Gor that have yet to experience what it is that life on Gor will bring and what is worth living for.  Knowing that, is honorable.

Raz